Inco.....and DL?

[Maria]

I agree with you Maria but I also am glad that the fetish squad is out there only because they force a better product to be made. I cannot imagine being stuck in a product like Depends or some other generic brand of disposable.

I understand that very well. I can't decide whether I'm glad because they have had this effect, or angry because the industry only listens to them.

I know very well what it is to be stuck with Depends and the like, because that is what I have been using mostly all this time, and that is also the reason that I have these very mixed feelings right now.

It's products such as those that we may be stuck with only because we have had no real choices. We have to wear diapers of some sort. That makes us a pretty much captive group. Based on that the diaper companies may only make a cheap product because they know we have to keep purchasing. The other group want something else from a diaper and the smart companies have responded for which we can benefit.

Economics isn't my strong point, but I have always thought that a demand creates supply. So maybe we weren't demanding loudly enough?

I imagine that this is how it went:

- (society) only babies wear diapers.
- (society) when babies grow up, they no longer need to wear diapers
- (society) therefore logically, if someone who is not a baby wears a diaper, they are reverting to being a baby again
- (society) we can't be having with that!
- (society) thus, if for some reason people who are not babies need some form of protective wear because they leak: they. Cannot. Wear. Diapers. Period.
- (society) what can we give these bothersome leaking people to wear? Obviously, something that absorbs, because they leak. It just can't be a diaper (see above)
- (absorbent product designer) Here, leaking people! We got you some discrete protective non-diaper underwear! Just throw it into the bin if you're done leaking.
- (leaking people) Thanks, discrete absorbent product designer! We appreciate it, but to be honest: these non-diaper protective briefs of yours aren't a patch on the good old diapers and waterproof pants we used to get!
- (society) EEEK! Did we just hear the D-word? Shoo! Bad, naughty leaking people! Shut up! You're not supposing that you are turning into BABIES, now aren't you? GGRAR! Grow up! Shoo!
- (leaking people) Er. Got some more of those non-diaper briefs?
- (environment) *choking sound*
- (leaking people) *sigh*

time ticks away ... and guess who's there? Enters Mr. Ab-Dl.

- (Mr. Ab-Dl) Hi, Society! Guess what? We really, really fancy being like a baby again. It's very kinky, but hey, free speech, free sexuality, free entertainment!
- (society) hmmm ... it's kinda gross, but they've got a point ...
- (Mr. Ab-Dl) Hiya, Absorbent Product Designer! We got +$$$ to spend! Look at this cute baby diaper .. if you make me a dozen of those in adult sizes, you'll be rewarded handsomely! Oh, make that two dozen, and also another one with pokemon prints on them!
- (absorbent product designer) *changes name to Acme Kinky Baby Wear Inc.*
- (Acme Kinky Baby Wear Inc) Hiya, Mr. Ab-Dl! Here's your order *CASH REGISTER SOUNDS*
- (Mr. Ab-Dl) whoohooo! And they even function like the real thing used to!
- (Acme Kinky Baby Wear Inc) Sure, Mr. Ab-Dl! At your service!
- (leaking people) hey, did you hear that? Those Acme Kinky Diapers absorb six times as good as our largest discrete absorbent still-non-diaper product does. Hey, society! What's that? Have you gone completely cuckoo?

Maybe we should sell the script to Hollywood and create our own brand with the earnings

[Don]

Yep Maria. I hear what you say. And you know what? Some ab/dl is going to read what you wrote and say "Darn, I'm good". He is going to think he's that much better than we are. But guess what! I can still live with myself because I'm not a perv. I sleep soundly at night knowing I'm not wrong. I find them disgusting.

[Puffy Pants]

Now that is FUNNY... (let me guess Maria, you write in your spare time??? ) and about sums it all up very well too, although I am sure the companies had to do some legitimate research on incontinence to make their end product, but I really wonder what KC did in the way of research for what thet offer to us... not much is my guess, and they do not listen to complaints very well, I hear many have emailed them, spoke to about how their Max fitted absorbs, or does not really... and they keep putting out the same old level of absorbtion year in and year out, which does not meet the needs of anyone that can lose 300-400 mls at a time, only small amounts over time is what they are useable for.. At least Attends, and others, have stepped it up to what in really needed in a "useable - trustable" adult diaper, and didn't jack their prices to cover any additional costs. The higher end ones, although much much better of a product in almost every aspect of what it can do, had to increase prices to cover costs to make it work so well.
Of course, there is a majority of society that will always have this train of thought about adult diapers, and that you must be regressing if you have to use them, because it is just not "normal"... Maybe not the norm, but for this problem, THEY WORK! and millions have to face it everyday, so they need to get over it! Not like it is something we signed up for...! Puffy

[Don]

Well said Puff. I don't even use depends for that same reason you pointed out. They just don't hold. They target newcomers to incontinence who don't know any better and who don't know what other brands are out there. They take advantage of people new to incontinence by offering them a product that will only absorb small leaks. And they call it max protection. LMAO. Depends will only hold like 1 small wetting TOPS! And heaven forbid you go to their site and bad mouth their product. All you get is a coupon and a boot from the moderators. They do not listen to what consumers have to say. They will never change.

[Maria]

It's products such as those that we may be stuck with only because we have had no real choices. We have to wear diapers of some sort. That makes us a pretty much captive group. Based on that the diaper companies may only make a cheap product because they know we have to keep purchasing. The other group want something else from a diaper and the smart companies have responded for which we can benefit.

You know, I still don't really get it. Why are we a captive group? Because we will buy their inadequate products anyhow?
You say that the abdl's want something else from a diaper - but we want something else from the producers as well, ie. products that are more adequate. Funny enough, there turns out to be quite some overlap between what the abdl's want and what we want.
We just want it for a very different reason, and maybe minus some whistles and bells that the abdl's fancy.

But even some incontinent / bedwetting folk don't half mind some less sterile-medical and more lively-looking garments.
I can only second that! I'm no more a bed-wetter than my neighbour is, say, an "eater". It does not define me as a person.
I am also a girl, and I like being a girl, and I generally like girlish things. If I am offered the choice between clinically-looking neutral diapers & plastic pants or something that looks explicitly female, I won't doubt for one millisecond.

It seems obvious that abdl's want explicitly 'babyish" products. I was thinking about this, but ever since I was put into those Depend non-diaper things I have wanted to get my old diapers and plastic panties back because they WORKED.
It is almost as if the very property of WORKING WELL has become "babyish" and considered a no-no. Well, in that sense, dear Manufacturer, I also would like to order extremely babyish products - I want products that work just as well.

So, what I don't understand is this:

- both us and the abdl group want something else than what we had.
1) We want it because we want products that work well and that are a bit less clinical. We know, that may come somewhat close to what's generally considered babyish. So be it, we don't mind. Deal with it.
2) The abdl group wants it in order to satisfy a sexual need. This not only approaches "babyish", but royally exceeds it (I never had those frilly pants as a baby, for instance)

Now all kidding aside: both 1) and 2) are groups with a demand. Now why on earth do the manufacturers listen only to 2)?

If we would somehow join our voices and approach a manufacturer, would they really be unwilling to listen? I see the fact that "we have to keep purchasing" only as more incentive for the manufacturers to listen to us: hey, it's a guaranteed and steady sales volume! In that sense we should be even better customers: indeed, we will buy their products until the cows come home. But I wont be surprised if at least part of the abdl phenomenon is hyped, and for all I know the majority of those might suddenly fall en masse for medieval knight's armour after the telly re-runs old Ivanhoe episodes

Some of the products out there work fantastic and they target the abdl crowd. I purchase SecureX Plus from Bambino despite the babyish website. I'm not interested in the baby printing on the landing of some of the products. I'm interested in performance, period. So if they want to "lump" me into a specific group so be it. I know better! So in a way I hope they keep barking for a higher quality product at a fair price. It all just helps me maintain a higher quality life.

I can only agree with what you say. But still, I hope that some manufacturer would be willing to listen to us as well.
Actually, there already is - KINS seems quite OK.

[Don]

Maria,
Gary at XPmedical is another good one. He is also incontinent. I think he runs the place. He sells Molicare, Abena, Dry 24/7, and attends (i think). He has good products and reasonable prices. Nothing babyish about his website either.

[Maria]

Maria,
Gary at XPmedical is another good one. He is also incontinent. I think he runs the place. He sells Molicare, Abena, Dry 24/7, and attends (i think). He has good products and reasonable prices. Nothing babyish about his website either.

Thanks - it's not that I dislike it if it's a bit "cute". I like "cute" - to a degree. It's "kinky" that I have a bit of a problem with.

But I suppose it's also that I am still a bit recovering from my bewilderment - sorry if I over-react a bit! I can't begin to say how much I value you all, your advice and the inspiration you give.

PS - I looked at XPMedical, but they only sell disposables it seems. I have ordered some reusables from KINS and the chinese website, but it'll probably be a while before they arrive.

[dangoch]

This sure has generated more interesting discussions than any other topic (I think). I need to remind people that there is a much larger base of customers than either AB/DLs or ambulatory incontinents. They are the institutional customers (hospitals, nursing homes, acute care facilities, ...). In the US, this most likely means that the products are paid by medicare (US Gov't). The way Medicare works is that they set a price for a product or service and that is what they pay. Period. So Grandma who is an Alzheimer's patient in a nursing home, where the standard practice is that all diapers are changed every 2 hours, it doesn't make sense to put a $1.50 diaper when Medicare pays 25 cents. There is no provision for diaper credits that allows one to use 2 high capacity diapers/day instead of 12 depends type diapers per day. If a diaper manufacturer could make a high capacity diaper for the same price as a depends or cheap attends, then they might get business, but why bother, 12 diapers are going to be changed per day anyway. So that is why there are depends and store brand diapers that only hold one wetting and can't stay together in one piece unless the wearer is very sedentary. Well, guess what, that exactly fits what institutional clients demand. They use probably 10-100 times the diapers that AB/DLs or us incontinent users buy. I put us in a different category because Grandma probably doesn't surf the incon or AB/DL forums. [funny thought, what would Grandma think if she did see a abdl board ]. Actually, both my parents became incontinent the last few years before they died, so it isn't just Grandma. When I first started looking for protection (>30 years ago), attends were the best product I could find and they were only good for 1 wetting or 2 hours, whichever came first. They had no liquid absorbing gel pellets (I forget what it's called), the plastic cover was very noisy and were moderately thick (but only fluff). I can't begin to tell you how many leaks I had. I remember one morning on a car trip in Oregon, I changed my diaper at a rest stop and 30 minutes later, the diaper was wet and leaked and my jeans were soaked. We had to stop at a department store to get a few pairs of pants because I had run out. It is entirely possible that non-ambulatory customers don't need much in the way of absorbency, but I am doing things, going out, and need protection (when I'm having a wet cycle) and I want as much security I can get. I like Dry 24/7 because they are the best disposable diaper I have found. I wear them day and night. Before that, I used Abena with a insert. I really don't care if people think I'm wearing a diaper. I don't go out in public in skin tight pants or spandex sport shorts. I really don't think anyone can tell I'm wearing a diaper, but I don't care. Getting back to the original point of this thread, I first found out about AB/DLs when I first got on Internet (~1990). There wasn't much out there other than alt.sex.fetish.diapers. I was amazed that there were adults using diapers and I lurked around for some time (with my jaw hitting the floor frequently) always interested in what people said about the quality and availability of diapers. By that time, drug stores started having an incontinence section, but mostly depends, attends and store brands and limited selection at that. There was no such thing as e-commerce, no diaper web sites. All that happened late 90s/ early 00s. In that time, I think I got a good understanding about AB/DLs. ABs tend to not be sex perverts (a strong term that I don't like). They want to be babies and I haven't seen a sexually active baby lately. The DLs are more sexually driven, and there are ABs that are also DLs and one size (category, not diaper) does not fit all. I had a hard time understanding ABs and still cannot. I enjoy the benefits of adulthood (driving, drinking, sex, ...) so why someone wants to give up any control of their lives (on purpose) is beyond me. It's the DLs that are hard to escape. By the time I got Internet, I had been going through the incontinence nightmare for over 10 years (and I'm lying, its was over 20, but I won't tell if you don't). I guess that means I've been dealing with this for over 40 years, oh my. Anyway. I had a love/hate relationship with diapers and a hate relationship with my incontinence. I think the "love" part is the ability to have a near normal life by wearing diapers. The hate was the fact that I needed to wear diapers in the first place and the hate incontinence was the same, I blamed my bladder for misbehaving and there wasn't anything I could do about it. Now you might say, see, Dan is a DL, he said he "loved" his diapers. Well, in some respect, I think I've come to that belief mostly because I want to be normal just like everyone else. Everyone is continent except me, right? Oh wait, these alt.sex.fetish.diapers guys (and they were all guys) must have problems too, they just don't talk about it. I'm sure most of us wouldn't connect getting pleasure from wearing diapers for no other reason other than wearing them. I mean, WHO? Well, over time, I learned much. I learned about pamper stuffers, better diapers (I think Tranquility was my first mail order diaper) and how to deal with rashes. Back then, rashes were common because the fluff didn't pull the urine away from your skin so people got more diaper rashes (I guess). I can't remember the last diaper rash I had. But I learned much more, more than I really wanted, but like I said, I had no idea what was going on. There was no AB/DL community, it was alt.sex.fetish.diapers. I guess I should have maybe guessed there was something sexual about this, but I thought at the time that maybe I'm missing out on something. I've got the diaper part, maybe I need the sex fetish part, might be fun? Well, nothing ever came up on the sexual thing. And I still like being an adult. But I did have one thing in common with these people, we used diapers, mostly for their intended purpose. We all wanted more absorbent diapers. Some wanted one tape, some wanted frilly bloomers, some wanted duckies, but everyone wanted more absorbent diapers. Most thought it brave to go out in public wearing diapers. I thought it was pointless unless you wanted to go out in public, not that I wanted to go around the house leaking everywhere. I felt the embarrassment of wearing diapers, the fear (taboo) of someone learning about my secret. But over time, I learned to feel comfortable wearing diapers and as I got older, I worried less about someone finding out. I don't envision running around the block in just a diaper, but I don't fear someone seeing me in a diaper or changing a diaper. I think of it like my special underwear or like wearing glasses (mine are coke bottles). So how this all relates to the thread, am I a DL? I think of myself as a Diaper Liker, which makes me a DL. I know I'm not like the teens and twenties on the AB/DL boards, but anything that makes me anything like a twenty something, I'm all in favor of. I turn 60 in 60 days and I'm going kicking and screaming. Went to urologist today and he gave me the surgery speech. I am getting very close to being a Diaper Lover if those are my choices.

[Puffy Pants]

I totally agree with you Don. When I had my 1st night incident back in 1995, the first incontinence item I went out and bought, (out of town might I add! this was so embarassing at the time) was Depends Max... WHY? because as a 26 year old single male with no children then or now, it was all I knew about as far as adult "items". Took a long time to admit I went and bought adult diapers to sleep in, but the night thing was so hit and miss, I feared sleeping in just double or triple underwear, trying to combat an unforseen flood if it was going to happen again, which it did of course, just not every night. No internet, not even a computer in the house back then really put a limit on what I knew of, a real 180' from what I know of now out there for incon issues. That first bag is no different then what is being made now (useless garbage!), as far as how well they work for level of abosrbancy, meaning then manufacturer, KC, had NOT listened to users about making a better product, and I would bet they do not sell as many now as they did in the past. Why? simply because they have not kept up with the Jones's in the market of adult supplies. I think I have one in the trunk of the car along with a few Tena's in the emergency bag, best place for it as I would not use it unless absolutely necessary, and wouldn't buy again. The underwear is decent for daytime problems, which if I don't watch and get to the bathroom on a scheduled timelimit I could run into, but decent backup protection when a full diaper is not necessary. Users of even those are telling KC that they need more absorption ability, and leg cuffs inside, but so far, they are not listening. Tena makes a men's daytime underwear, it may be time to try them and see how well they do when called on, they certainly have a good full diaper in the Super, so they must have listened and done some research when manufacturing that line of product.

dangoch, as far as what you said, I do not understand that whole AB/DL lifestyle either, and it is all over the web when looking for protection. I had a line on a supplier of Abena's that was close to home (via Ebay), but when I was directed to his site, it was 100% AB/DL and that turned me off buying from him just because of that, decided the Tena I use and can get just down the street is all I need for protection for trips out. Not something I want appearing on a Vise/ MC statement, or a delivery to the door that is tagged inappropriately from some shady company that caters 100% to that lifestlye, I want no part of it... still don't get it, but leave me out of it, thanks! Puffy

[Maria]

Well,

Put like that, I think I may turn into a DAPPA (Diaper And Plastic Pants Adorer / Adocate) any day now *if* they will give me undisturbed sleep